[RTC List] New record set yesterday for alternative energy generation

[Don Grossman]

On Nov 12, 2009, at 11:44 AM, Carl Birks wrote:

> Thanks for the info Don.  I hope that all of you will excuse this  
> intrusion but felt that more info might better inform the debate, so  
> in that spirit:
>
> We might also note that fossil fuels are heavily subsidized by  
> taxpayers:  http://www.grist.org/article/2009-09-22-fossil-fuel-subsidies-dwarf-clean-energy-subsidies-obama-wants/

Not sure what US policies have to do with Spain but this article could  
also use a comparison of the direct subsidies that other countries  
such as China, India, Mexico have on their energy cost which would add  
up to considerably more than the US spends.  The article only has  
dollar figures and no information to put the numbers in perspective.   
It's like saying I made $10K in net profits.  If I made $10k on $20k  
in sales that would be pretty good.  If it was $10k on $1M in sales,  
thats not so good.  Or my margins are only 3%.  Doesn't sound to good  
by it's self but if that was 3% of $40Billion I would be taking the  
rest of the day off.  So $72.5 billion in subsidies over 7 years  
compared to what for the industry?  My guess would be that the  
Renewable energy subsidies as a percentage of spending compared to the  
fossil fuels would be much greater therefore masking the real monetary  
costs for renewables more than that of fossil fuels?

>
> Or we may want to take a closer look at the many underlying issues  
> causing Spain's unemployment that are not related to taxes to  
> support subsidies for renewable energy:
> http://www.allbusiness.com/public-administration/national-security-international/524124-1.html

I did not want to give the impression( which I guess I did) that wind  
energy was the only cause for a down turn but when you pull 85B in new  
taxes and job elimination have to at least hurt a little.

>
> Lastly, one reason for the low price of fossil fuels is that it  
> externalizes environmental and social costs associated with carbon  
> emissions.  The Economist, for one, advocates a carbon tax rather  
> than specific subsidies in order to bring about reductions in carbon  
> emissions.

Carbon tax=bad idea.  This will still drive the cost of everything up  
and we will still have the "problem" of subsidized energy

As you pointed out subsidies have been a big contributor to the  
problem ( lots of problems) masking the real costs and impacts of many  
things in our everyday life.  Ending these overnight would be economic  
suicide but a gradual pull out ( of subsidizing everything) will allow  
people to see the true costs and impacts of their decisions.

I love the idea of renewable energy, use them myself where possible,  
etc ( I blame water vapor and solar irradiance myself) and so on but  
my point has been lost.

Spain's windmill project has not created the new great "Green" economy  
it was touted to do.

It has been more costly and turned into an economic consumer instead  
of a producer.

Does not produce the amounts of energy it was intended to produce and  
saying that it is making 40-50% of spain's power without perspective  
was just wrong.

There was some talk of a project like this for Humbolt county.  If  
this is want you want than so be it.

Personally I would look at some other technologies first.

Don


>
> "Governments regard subsidies as easier, politically, than taxing  
> carbon. In the short term, they are right; but in the long term, bad  
> policy will raise the costs of decarbonising the world economy, thus  
> increasing the danger of a taxpayers’ revolt—which would be the  
> biggest political difficulty of all."
> http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14649098
>
> Best,
> Carl
> Carl G. Birks
> Community Information Technology Services
> 707 834 8434
> carl.birks at communityITservices.com
> www.communityITservices.com
>
>
> Don Grossman wrote:
>>
>> More good news
>>
>> Just last Sunday they hit 53% of their power needs.....
>>
>> http://www.aeeolica.es/
>>
>> well for 5 hours at least.
>>
>> 2008 average was only about 11% of spain's power needs for the  
>> year. (something about the wind not always blowing or some nonsense)
>>
>> All at a cost of massive government subsidies and higher tariffs on  
>> less expensive for electricity from neighboring countries (hmmm  
>> France's cheap nuclear maybehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France 
>> )
>>
>> Net job loss due to "green job creation"  about 2 to1 and increased  
>> taxation resulting in an unemployment rate close to 18%.  Inflation  
>> over 10 years equaling 150% increase in prices...
>>
>> Interesting study from the Juan Carlos University
>>
>> http://www.juandemariana.org/pdf/090327-employment-public-aid-renewable.pdf
>>
>> Funny how the Spanish don't suffer from Wind turbine Syndrome like  
>> we do here....  or at least not very well documented.  Must be  
>> something in the water.
>>
>> Random thought for a random topic.
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>> Don
>> On Nov 11, 2009, at 9:52 PM, Larry Goldberg wrote:
>>
>>> For those of you interested in alternative energy (specifically  
>>> wind generation), check this out:
>>>
>>> New record set for wind generation in Spain: http://www.evwind.es/noticias.php?id_not=2148
>>>
>>> Maybe someday this could be Humboldt!
>>>

Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them.
Ronald Reagan

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redwoodtech.org/pipermail/list_redwoodtech.org/attachments/20091112/e0af7032/attachment.html>